A recent report from the United Nations about oceans shows that out of, I think, 18 areas in the ocean, 17 are about to collapse in terms of the capacity for fishing. But every day we have better ships, technologically equipped to do better fishing. So, something is off in the whole process.

That lack of balance or better yet, integration, is so present in everydayness, for you, for me, for everyone, and we have no idea how to deal with that. Now, where do we go to resolve it? Typically, we go to more technology, which produces more of the same. So, for me, dealing with those crises requires a very profound transformation, and that’s what we are dedicated to at Newfield. And the profound transformation is not just to accumulate more information about the world; it’s not about gathering more stuff; it’s not about more technology. It’s actually about creating a new inhabitant of this planet. That, for me, would be what comes after modernity, if we survive in the process. That is what we are dedicated to. And, please, just to make sure that I don’t sound grandiose here, I’m not saying that Newfield is going to do the job. We are part of an enormous number of people on this planet who are concerned with looking for ways to deal with the crises I’ve been talking about.

Bill. You mentioned Wilber earlier. How would you position your own perspective, your own work, with, say, Don Beck and Spiral Dynamics (Beck and Cowan, 2005)? Are there ways in which what you’re talking about has to do with transitions between different levels of consciousness?

Julio: In this context, I would refer more to the work of Clare Graves, on whom Don Beck bases his work.  Clare Graves was a brilliant man who articulated something important-regardless of the fact that you may have some agreements or disagreements with how he divided this or that. The fact that he articulated a transit for human consciousness is extraordinary and, for me, enormously helpful. When Graves talked about different levels of consciousness and how we move between levels, he took away the idea that it’s just about being brilliant. Brilliance lives in all levels of consciousness, but it lives very differently, and it produces very different phenomena.